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"Tragedy of the Commons" Lie Debunked Rate Topic: -----

#1 User is offline   Second_AoJ 

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Posted 29 July 2010 - 01:20 AM

This happened about a year ago, but not too many are aware. It puts to rest another LIE perpetrated by vicious, right-wing SCUMBAGS who would impose a neoliberalist corporate oligarchy if given the chance. (Hi Pinochet)

Read the whole story at:

http://www.yesmagazi...-of-the-commons

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The Victory of the Commons
Nobel Prize-winning economist Elinor Ostrom proved that people can—and do—work together to manage commonly-held resources without degrading them.
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by Jay Walljasper
posted Oct 27, 2009


The biggest roadblock standing in the way of many people’s recognition of the importance of the commons came tumbling down when Indiana University professor Elinor Ostrom won the Nobel Prize for Economics.


Garrett Hardin described the Tragedy of the Commons with a hypothetical example of shared herding land: If all herders make the individually rational economic decision of increasing the number of cows they graze on the land, the collective effect will deplete or destroy the common.

Photo by Brenda Anderson

Over many decades, Ostrom has documented how various communities manage common resources—grazing lands, forests, irrigation waters, fisheries—equitably and sustainably over the long term. The Nobel Committee’s recognition of her work effectively debunks popular theories about the Tragedy of the Commons, which hold that private property is the only effective method to prevent finite resources from being ruined or depleted.

Awarding the world’s most prestigious economics prize to a scholar who champions cooperative behavior greatly boosts the legitimacy of the commons as a framework for solving our social and environmental problems. Ostrom’s work also challenges the current economic orthodoxy that there are few, if any, alternatives to privatization and markets in generating wealth and human well being.

The Tragedy of the Commons refers to a scenario in which commonly held land is inevitably degraded because everyone in a community is allowed to graze livestock there. This parable was popularized by wildlife biologist Garrett Hardin in the late 1960s, and was embraced as a principle by the emerging environmental movement. But Ostrom’s research refutes this abstract concept with the real life experience from places like Nepal, Kenya and Guatemala.


Ostrom is not even a liberal. She is center-right, but like most in academia, reaches her conclusion AFTER she does the research, unlike AGW deniers and other trash pretending to be scientific doubters. Those who supported this "tragedy of the commons" bullshit pointed to isolated cases, (obviously reaching the conclusion before they even did "research") and even then, could not match perhaps even 10% of Ostrom's actual analysis in quality and depth.


RIP free market evangelicals. Go preach your bullshit elsewhere.

This post has been edited by Second_AoJ: 29 July 2010 - 01:22 AM

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#2 User is offline   Aeon135 

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Posted 29 July 2010 - 01:52 AM

Quote

It puts to rest another LIE perpetrated by vicious, right-wing SCUMBAGS who would impose a neoliberalist corporate oligarchy if given the chance.


steady now, the honest women who proved this is right wing.
thanks for posting this.
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#3 User is offline   Second_AoJ 

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Posted 29 July 2010 - 02:01 AM

View PostAeon135, on 28 July 2010 - 11:52 PM, said:

Quote

It puts to rest another LIE perpetrated by vicious, right-wing SCUMBAGS who would impose a neoliberalist corporate oligarchy if given the chance.


steady now, the honest women who proved this is right wing.
thanks for posting this.


Slightly right-wing but not rabid.
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#4 User is offline   Second_AoJ 

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Posted 30 July 2010 - 09:14 PM

Hmm...no libertardian response. Thanks for the endorsement.
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#5 User is offline   chronosfirex2000 

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Posted 30 July 2010 - 09:41 PM

View PostSecond_AoJ, on 30 July 2010 - 07:14 PM, said:

Hmm...no libertardian response. Thanks for the endorsement.


Well, can you explain how libertarians have in common the same economic ideas as Pinochet?

You would agree that Fascism and libertarianism is essentially polar opposites?
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#6 User is offline   Gomi 

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Posted 30 July 2010 - 09:44 PM

View PostSecond_AoJ, on 29 July 2010 - 01:20 AM, said:

RIP free market evangelicals. Go preach your bullshit elsewhere.

Point of fact: The free market doesn't necessarily negate communal ownership of the commons.
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#7 User is offline   Aeon135 

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Posted 30 July 2010 - 10:14 PM

View PostGomi, on 31 July 2010 - 02:44 AM, said:

View PostSecond_AoJ, on 29 July 2010 - 01:20 AM, said:

RIP free market evangelicals. Go preach your bullshit elsewhere.

Point of fact: The free market doesn't necessarily negate communal ownership of the commons.


agreed, capitalism and free market are not intertwined.
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#8 User is online   longshot 

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Posted 30 July 2010 - 10:32 PM

View PostAeon135, on 30 July 2010 - 11:14 PM, said:

agreed, capitalism and free market are not intertwined.

Hope you don't mind me butting in here, but I take it you distinguish capitalism and free markets. What do you consider to be the difference between the two?
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#9 User is offline   Aeon135 

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Posted 30 July 2010 - 10:36 PM

View Postlongshot, on 31 July 2010 - 03:32 AM, said:

View PostAeon135, on 30 July 2010 - 11:14 PM, said:

agreed, capitalism and free market are not intertwined.

Hope you don't mind me butting in here, but I take it you distinguish capitalism and free markets. What do you consider to be the difference between the two?


A free market is a system of competition without static prices (unregulated). Preferably a free market would have people deciding prices.

Capitalism is private ownership of the means of production.

You can have free market capitalism (libertarianism) or you can have non free market capitalism (corporatism/fascism).
You can also point to free market socialism (China, Mutualism)

This shows that the free market is not a defining feature of capitalism, it is a feature in all economics.

This post has been edited by Aeon135: 30 July 2010 - 10:37 PM

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#10 User is offline   Gomi 

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Posted 30 July 2010 - 10:51 PM

View Postlongshot, on 30 July 2010 - 10:32 PM, said:

View PostAeon135, on 30 July 2010 - 11:14 PM, said:

agreed, capitalism and free market are not intertwined.

Hope you don't mind me butting in here, but I take it you distinguish capitalism and free markets. What do you consider to be the difference between the two?

Aeon basically covered it.

Personally, I see most economies having two defining characteristics:
1) How free is movement in the economy?
2) Who controls units in the economy?

The first is a measure of regulation, and a free market exists on one end of that spectrum. The second is a measure of ownership, from individuals to collectives, corporations to cooperatives.

Capitalism is probably the dominant free market system out there, but not the only one.

For example, I believe in a radically free economy, with ownership at the individual level. You and you alone control your labor. Not a corporation (though cooperatives and such could be created voluntarily) and not the community (because they didn't do your labor for you).

Personally, I'd argue that the accretion of capital in a capitalist system restricts the true freedom of the market, as much as any government regulation, and just on a different scale from monopolies.
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#11 User is offline   Second_AoJ 

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Posted 31 July 2010 - 01:34 PM

View Postchronosfirex2000, on 30 July 2010 - 07:41 PM, said:

View PostSecond_AoJ, on 30 July 2010 - 07:14 PM, said:

Hmm...no libertardian response. Thanks for the endorsement.


Well, can you explain how libertarians have in common the same economic ideas as Pinochet?

You would agree that Fascism and libertarianism is essentially polar opposites?


Do you know of any libertarians who condemn the economic policies of Pinochet? Pinochet imposed a "free market" capitalist system, with aid from the American CIA and the IMF.

And how is that relevant to the topic at hand, which is whether or not the "commons" is a sustainable way to organize economic activity? You seem fixated on one acerbic snipe I made at "your side" (whatever that is), choosing to ignore everything else that is actually of import.

This post has been edited by Second_AoJ: 31 July 2010 - 01:41 PM

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#12 User is offline   chronosfirex2000 

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Posted 31 July 2010 - 01:59 PM

View PostSecond_AoJ, on 31 July 2010 - 11:34 AM, said:

View Postchronosfirex2000, on 30 July 2010 - 07:41 PM, said:

View PostSecond_AoJ, on 30 July 2010 - 07:14 PM, said:

Hmm...no libertardian response. Thanks for the endorsement.


Well, can you explain how libertarians have in common the same economic ideas as Pinochet?

You would agree that Fascism and libertarianism is essentially polar opposites?


Do you know of any libertarians who condemn the economic policies of Pinochet? Pinochet imposed a "free market" capitalist system, with aid from the American CIA and the IMF.

And how is that relevant to the topic at hand, which is whether or not the "commons" is a sustainable way to organize economic activity? You seem fixated on one acerbic snipe I made at "your side" (whatever that is), choosing to ignore everything else that is actually of import.


Because Pinochet did not advocate a free market economy. He was a fascist, Second,
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#13 User is online   longshot 

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Posted 31 July 2010 - 06:16 PM

View PostAeon135, on 30 July 2010 - 11:36 PM, said:

A free market is a system of competition without static prices (unregulated). Preferably a free market would have people deciding prices.

Capitalism is private ownership of the means of production.

You can have free market capitalism (libertarianism) or you can have non free market capitalism (corporatism/fascism).
You can also point to free market socialism (China, Mutualism)

This shows that the free market is not a defining feature of capitalism, it is a feature in all economics.

I'm still having trouble understanding the similarities and differences. Let me test my understanding by restating: A free market is a system where people are free to exchange with one another and are free to determine how much of each item they wish to exchange (the price.)

You define capitalism as the private ownership of the means of production. I have always thought this to be a decent definition as well. I'm having difficulty trying to name what the opposite of capitalism would be. If the means of production are not owned by individual people (or groups of people), then who owns them, and what does one call such a state of affairs. I've always considered the alternative to capitalism to be state socialism (or possibly Leninism), which would be government ownership of the means of production. (Note

But if the means of producing goods are not privately owned, the I have difficulty see how a free market could exist, because the seller of goods would not be a private person, but a state agent.

I suppose I've always considered a free market to be equivalent to capitalism and capitalism to be equivalent to a free market. Perhaps I need to get my head around how the two concepts could be different.
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#14 User is offline   Gomi 

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Posted 31 July 2010 - 06:47 PM

View Postlongshot, on 31 July 2010 - 06:16 PM, said:

View PostAeon135, on 30 July 2010 - 11:36 PM, said:

A free market is a system of competition without static prices (unregulated). Preferably a free market would have people deciding prices.

Capitalism is private ownership of the means of production.

You can have free market capitalism (libertarianism) or you can have non free market capitalism (corporatism/fascism).
You can also point to free market socialism (China, Mutualism)

This shows that the free market is not a defining feature of capitalism, it is a feature in all economics.

I'm still having trouble understanding the similarities and differences. Let me test my understanding by restating: A free market is a system where people are free to exchange with one another and are free to determine how much of each item they wish to exchange (the price.)

You define capitalism as the private ownership of the means of production. I have always thought this to be a decent definition as well. I'm having difficulty trying to name what the opposite of capitalism would be. If the means of production are not owned by individual people (or groups of people), then who owns them, and what does one call such a state of affairs. I've always considered the alternative to capitalism to be state socialism (or possibly Leninism), which would be government ownership of the means of production. (Note

But if the means of producing goods are not privately owned, the I have difficulty see how a free market could exist, because the seller of goods would not be a private person, but a state agent.

I suppose I've always considered a free market to be equivalent to capitalism and capitalism to be equivalent to a free market. Perhaps I need to get my head around how the two concepts could be different.

I'd recommend looking up a system called "Mutualism." Some of its adherents refer to it as "free market socialism." It's an example of a free market, but not capitalist, economic theory.
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#15 User is online   longshot 

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Posted 31 July 2010 - 06:54 PM

View PostGomi, on 31 July 2010 - 07:47 PM, said:

I'd recommend looking up a system called "Mutualism." Some of its adherents refer to it as "free market socialism." It's an example of a free market, but not capitalist, economic theory.

Thanks. I'll look into it and check back in later.
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#16 User is offline   Aeon135 

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Posted 31 July 2010 - 11:27 PM

View Postlongshot, on 31 July 2010 - 11:16 PM, said:

View PostAeon135, on 30 July 2010 - 11:36 PM, said:

A free market is a system of competition without static prices (unregulated). Preferably a free market would have people deciding prices.

Capitalism is private ownership of the means of production.

You can have free market capitalism (libertarianism) or you can have non free market capitalism (corporatism/fascism).
You can also point to free market socialism (China, Mutualism)

This shows that the free market is not a defining feature of capitalism, it is a feature in all economics.

I'm still having trouble understanding the similarities and differences. Let me test my understanding by restating: A free market is a system where people are free to exchange with one another and are free to determine how much of each item they wish to exchange (the price.)


correct, and there arn't any similarities, there not two ideologies, one is mode of production, the other is a form of allocating resources.

Quote

You define capitalism as the private ownership of the means of production. I have always thought this to be a decent definition as well. I'm having difficulty trying to name what the opposite of capitalism would be. If the means of production are not owned by individual people (or groups of people), then who owns them, and what does one call such a state of affairs. I've always considered the alternative to capitalism to be state socialism (or possibly Leninism), which would be government ownership of the means of production.


No offense, but you are the perfect example of how the mass media has margnalized libertarian socialism, ergo: communal ownership, the idea that theres a third way between state ownership and private ownership didn't even occur to you, as it doesn't with most members of this forum, and world.

Quote

But if the means of producing goods are not privately owned, the I have difficulty see how a free market could exist, because the seller of goods would not be a private person, but a state agent.


again, see above.
Also, see China, thats free market state controlled, they seem to be doing it fine.

Quote

I suppose I've always considered a free market to be equivalent to capitalism and capitalism to be equivalent to a free market. Perhaps I need to get my head around how the two concepts could be different.


Yes, there not necessarily related, I happen to be a communist, yet I would support a market of sorts. Not a market as you would recognise it however.
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#17 User is online   longshot 

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Posted 01 August 2010 - 11:49 AM

View PostAeon135, on 01 August 2010 - 12:27 AM, said:

longshot said:

You define capitalism as the private ownership of the means of production. I have always thought this to be a decent definition as well. I'm having difficulty trying to name what the opposite of capitalism would be. If the means of production are not owned by individual people (or groups of people), then who owns them, and what does one call such a state of affairs. I've always considered the alternative to capitalism to be state socialism (or possibly Leninism), which would be government ownership of the means of production.


No offense, but you are the perfect example of how the mass media has margnalized libertarian socialism, ergo: communal ownership, the idea that theres a third way between state ownership and private ownership didn't even occur to you, as it doesn't with most members of this forum, and world.

I'm not exactly sure what third way there could be. Either something is owned by the government, or it is owned privately. Certainly groups of people can own something jointly, but I don't see this as unique in any way. A voluntary socialist arrangement is still fundamentally consistent with capitalism, as the ownership is still private, although the asset is jointly owned, but it's still privately owned. What am I missing?


View PostAeon135, on 01 August 2010 - 12:27 AM, said:

Yes, there not necessarily related, I happen to be a communist, yet I would support a market of sorts. Not a market as you would recognise it however.

What would the market you support look like? How would it differ from capitalism?
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#18 User is offline   Gomi 

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Posted 01 August 2010 - 12:10 PM

View Postlongshot, on 01 August 2010 - 11:49 AM, said:

View PostAeon135, on 01 August 2010 - 12:27 AM, said:

longshot said:

You define capitalism as the private ownership of the means of production. I have always thought this to be a decent definition as well. I'm having difficulty trying to name what the opposite of capitalism would be. If the means of production are not owned by individual people (or groups of people), then who owns them, and what does one call such a state of affairs. I've always considered the alternative to capitalism to be state socialism (or possibly Leninism), which would be government ownership of the means of production.


No offense, but you are the perfect example of how the mass media has margnalized libertarian socialism, ergo: communal ownership, the idea that theres a third way between state ownership and private ownership didn't even occur to you, as it doesn't with most members of this forum, and world.

I'm not exactly sure what third way there could be. Either something is owned by the government, or it is owned privately. Certainly groups of people can own something jointly, but I don't see this as unique in any way. A voluntary socialist arrangement is still fundamentally consistent with capitalism, as the ownership is still private, although the asset is jointly owned, but it's still privately owned. What am I missing?

Aeon's referring to true communal ownership. A watch factory could be owned by an individual, or group of individuals, or it could be owned by the government. But, it could also be owned by every citizen in the society. A true communal property.

If every person owns it, is it still "privately" owned? It's not owned by the state, as such.
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#19 User is offline   Aeon135 

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Posted 01 August 2010 - 12:52 PM

better yet: if something is owned by everyone, it might aswell be owned by no one. this is what libertarian socialists mean when they say they would abolish ownership over the means of production (MoP).

I remember you (gomi) saying that in a state, we have governors over the governed, but in statelessness, everyone governs, or no one does, same idea.

What you described longshot is indeed private property, not communal

there are 3 forms of ownership, state, private and communal. Read here please

However when a group of workers own there own workplace, ie: a worker co-op, anarchists consider this a form of socialism, despite the private ownership.

I was hoping not to have to bring it up, but now i feel a need to, because it's a subject that seems to annoy those who support capitalism, it's peculiar in it's own way..

Anarchists don't regard private property as the only defining point of capitalism, or one at all, I said capitalism is defined by private property because I don't like getting bogged down in this confusing idea, it's much simpler to say it's private ownership and be done.

basically, anarchists say the there are other characteristics in capitalism:

*Private ownership: debatable

*Wage slavery: socialist term refering to the idea that you have to litterally sell yourself for a set time most days - what you call work hours - and give up many of our rights in private tyranny. The common name for capitalism when it emerged in the 17th century.

*Profit/Usary: the capitalist takes a certain amount of your labour ("surplus value") - basically the idea that one can live off the labour of there workers because they own the MoP see here

thus, when a group of workers in common own there own workplace (as Gomi supports) we consider it a form of socialism because it lacks profit and living off non labour wages. theres also a rather more subjective idea that capitalism is inherently hierarchical, and that what is described in above is not hierarchical, so it's not capitalism.

Individualist anarchists advocate this form of "private socialism", usually along with market socialism.
This much better explanation explains that it is infact the profit characteristic which is most distinctive in capitalism.

I don't talk about this often because liberals generally equate capitalism with the free market and visa versa, and this is all very alien to them!

Basically it's an idea that capitalism is defined by exploitation, which is why you'll never hear a capitalist repeat this stuff.
btw Marxists would also agree with the above to an extant.

This post has been edited by Aeon135: 01 August 2010 - 12:52 PM

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#20 User is offline   Second_AoJ 

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Posted 01 August 2010 - 12:53 PM

View Postchronosfirex2000, on 31 July 2010 - 11:59 AM, said:

View PostSecond_AoJ, on 31 July 2010 - 11:34 AM, said:

View Postchronosfirex2000, on 30 July 2010 - 07:41 PM, said:

View PostSecond_AoJ, on 30 July 2010 - 07:14 PM, said:

Hmm...no libertardian response. Thanks for the endorsement.


Well, can you explain how libertarians have in common the same economic ideas as Pinochet?

You would agree that Fascism and libertarianism is essentially polar opposites?


Do you know of any libertarians who condemn the economic policies of Pinochet? Pinochet imposed a "free market" capitalist system, with aid from the American CIA and the IMF.

And how is that relevant to the topic at hand, which is whether or not the "commons" is a sustainable way to organize economic activity? You seem fixated on one acerbic snipe I made at "your side" (whatever that is), choosing to ignore everything else that is actually of import.


Because Pinochet did not advocate a free market economy. He was a fascist, Second,


Could you list some of those "fascist" economic policies? I must have missed them. You're essentially saying the Chicago School is advocating fascism (economics), something most academics would reject.
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